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PVC vs HDPE pipe, Trenchless Technology magazine looks at the benefits of both PVC and HDPE.
PVC and HDPE pipe are inarguably the two most popular pipes used in underground construction and in this article we will compare PVC vs HDPE pipe. In a Trenchless Technology survey published in our August issue in , we polled sewer system operators and consulting engineers from around the United States about their pipe choices. The results showed that HDPE and PVC finished either #1 or #2 in most categories. Both types of pipe have their strengths and weaknesses and appeal to many contractors and project owners due to their expansive reach in applications. We wanted to know more so we contacted their respective pipe associations for more information. Interim Uni-Bell PVC Pipe Association executive director Michael Luckenbill and Plastic Pipe Institute executive director Tony Radoszewski were kind enough to respond to our questions.
Michael Luckenbill: Uni-Bell is the not-for-profit, technical support, trade association of major PVC pipe producers and is staffed with engineers who are knowledgeable in buried pipe applications and design. As a result of the pipes’ superior performance and lower maintenance sustainability, the use of PVC pipes for buried water distribution and wastewater collection systems has grown steadily, if not remarkably, since their introduction in North America in the s. Today PVC pipes dominate new installations of both water and sewer pipes, exceeding the combined total lengths of all alternative pipe materials combined.
Tony Radoszewski: Founded in , the mission of the Plastics Pipe Institute is to promote plastics as the material of choice for piping applications. The primary objective of PPI is to provide a forum for our member companies to work in a cooperative effort to broaden the market for plastic pipe and related products.
Uni-Bell non-profit trade association has also made an indelible mark on The history of NHL, not only through its contributions to the sport itself but also as a driving force behind important social and cultural changes within the league. Established in , Uni-Bell has played a pivotal role in promoting inclusivity and diversity in hockey. The association took significant steps to break down barriers, actively advocating for increased participation of marginalized communities and working closely with NHL teams to create programs aimed at attracting new fans from all walks of life.
We are comprised of nearly 140 companies that either make the plastic raw material or the finished plastic pipe and fittings from those materials. We also have members that make equipment to process resin into pipe and fittings or help to connect and install plastic pipe. We also have professional members and related associations as members.
Since our members’ products serve virtually every underground utility and application where pipe is used, we have structured our organization into five divisions: Fuel Gas, which focuses on the natural gas distribution industry; Municipal and Industrial, which focuses on potable water and sanitary sewer (that’s the municipal side) and all other industrial applications which can include mining, landfill, geothermal, oil and gas gathering to name a few; Corrugated Pipe, which covers stormwater systems, storm water management including retention and detention systems, sub-surface drainage and agricultural drainage for maximum crop production; Conduit, which serves the power and telecommunications industries for underground service lines; Heating and Plumbing, which covers radiant heating systems and indoor residential plumbing including hot and cold water lines.
Perhaps the most important role the members of PPI play is that of working with industry, government and educational groups to develop industry standards for pipe and fittings. For nearly five decades, the PPI has and continues to work with these groups in an effort to engage the standards community in creating open criteria and test methods that provide the specifier and end user with the most up to date technical information possible. We believe the presence of these industry standards provides assurance that the technologies and processes developed in the plastics pipe industry are proven and reliable.
In this effort, we have established long-term relationships with various organizations including the American Association of State Highway Transportation Officials (AASHTO), the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM International), the American Water Works Association (AWWA), American Gas Association (AGA), the International Organization for Standardization (ISO), American Society of Mechanical Engineers (AMSE), and the Canadian Standards Association (CSA). We are also involved with state and federal departments of transportation, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the Federal Highway Association (FHwA), various water councils and we sponsor research with multiple state universities across North America.
While many of our member companies have high-density polyethylene (HDPE) interests, our organization also includes a number of producers of other plastic materials and pipe including polyvinylchloride (PVC), chlorinated polyvinylchloride (CPVC), polyamide nylon, polypropylene and crosslinked polyethylene. In addition, a growing number of our members also have divisions that produce and/or distribute ductile iron, cast iron, steel, copper, clay, corrugated steel, and concrete pipe.
TR: In the past, the most important question asked was “How much?” But with a growing concern relating to sustainability, two more questions are becoming equal in importance to the economics of the job: Firstly, what is the environmental impact and performance of the pipe and secondly, does it create “green jobs.” More and more the specifiers for pipe systems are embracing an attitude of environmental stewardship that is driven by a greater appreciation of the carbon footprint any pipe system leaves and how well does the pipe line protect and preserve natural resources. HDPE pipe fits this need exceptionally well.
HDPE pipe has a relatively small carbon footprint when compared to iron and concrete pipe. A study conducted in the late s concluded that plastic pipe used in the building, construction and transportation industries required 56,500 trillion fewer BTU’s than iron and concrete/aggregate alternatives.
With its lower weight per foot, HDPE pipe is also less costly to transport to the job site than metal or concrete. And with the ability to “nest” smaller diameter pipe in larger pipe, more feet per truckload can be delivered with out breeching highway weight limitations.
In HDPE pressure pipe systems, the fused joint creates a totally leak free system. This means precious natural resources are saved and the energy to treat, store and distribute water is reduced. For municipal storm water systems, improvements in joint design in corrugated HDPE pipe deliver a watertight joint that equals and exceeds the performance levels of sanitary sewer systems. This means infiltration or exfiltration that can prematurely end a storm water system or cause road damage due to sink holes, is dramatically decreased.
When it comes to long-term sustainability, HDPE pipe truly shows its key benefits: it doesn’t rust, it’s highly resistant to mineral tuberculation and its abrasion resistance is significantly greater than metal, concrete and other plastics. With today’s crumbling underground infrastructure experiencing nearly 700 water main breaks per day (might want to sight a reference for this number), the need to replace old technology becomes evermore important.
ML: With ever increasing numbers of pipe failures and their associated high costs, replacing them with the same or similar pipe materials simply does not make sense. Progressive water and sewer utilities want alternatives that will last longer and perform better with minimal or no maintenance. In excess of 2 million miles of installed PVC water and wastewater pipes have demonstrated success in meeting those noble objectives throughout North America and have rewarded those utilities with substantial cost savings.
Reluctance on the part of some utilities to allow PVC pipe is the result of commercially tainted miss-information combined with a general lack of formal training in plastics materials. Admittedly, many plastics are too weak or too soft for buried pipe applications. From the beginning, the PVC pipe industry has had to invest heavily in performance testing and research in order to dispel the concerns and educate utilities along with their engineers. Does the pipe material have sufficient long-term tensile strength and stiffness? Is the pipe material resistant to permeation in contaminated soils/groundwater? Are the joints water tight? How long can the pipe be expected to last/perform? Will the pipe corrode or otherwise oxidize? Will sunlight damage the pipe? Can the pipe be used with conventional appurtenances, valves, fittings, and other connections? How can I locate the pipe after burial? Over the past five decades, the PVC pipe industry and Uni-Bell have amassed technically correct answers to these questions and more.
ML: The efficiency and effectiveness of water and wastewater pipe systems has a significant impact on the environment, public health and local utility budgets. The direct “costs” of corrosion for water and wastewater pipe systems are $36 billion annually in the United States and pipe corrosion represents a significant loss in value of the infrastructure investment made by local governments all across our nation. Furthermore, in the United States we average 700 water main breaks per day and lose 2.2 trillion gals of treated water every year, largely due to breaks and leaks. Through the thoughtful selection of pipe materials that are inherently best suited for the anticipated operating conditions and environment, literally billions of dollars are being saved.
TR: The choice of pipe material for any application, whether underground or aboveground, can be the most important decision of the entire project – many times surpassing cost concerns. Based on the service the pipe sees or the ground conditions in which it is installed, the choice of material will dictate the service life of the system. What affect will the flow have on the pipe material? Is it highly acidic or alkaline? Is it abrasive in nature? What about the soil conditions? “Hot” soils can immediately begin to attack the exterior surface of the pipe. And what about soil contaminants? In any of these instances, a material that is highly resistant to these conditions must be employed.
Next, one needs to understand the installation methods planning to be used; trenchless or open cut? With HDPE pipe’s fused joint, a monolithic pipe string is created allowing for long pulls and minimal surface (and traffic) disruption.
And lastly, what is the lifetime cost of the system? Will special corrosion protection be needed? Will the pipe have the same flow characteristics in 10, 50 or 75 years? What is the anticipated cost of water (or other fluid) loss through mechanical joints? What will be the affect of soil infiltration on road ways whose cost to repair far exceeds the cost of the pipe?
TR: Sustainability, service life, and lifetime costs – this is the triple bottom line that today’s design engineer needs to address. Is it the best choice for the environment in terms of energy costs (carbon footprint) and protection for natural resources? Is it going to last for multiple generations – and then some? What is the total economic cost, including manufacturing, delivery, installation, operation, maintenance and performance for the owner/operator? HDPE pipe, both pressure and gravity flow, has proven itself around the world as the best material choice for water, sanitary sewer, storm sewer, natural gas distribution, mining, oil & gas gathering, drainage, buried conduit, outfall lines, and now even safety systems for nuclear power plants. Its inherent resistance to rust and abrasion along with the best joint in both pressure and gravity flow applications has made HDPE pipe the one plastic material used in all underground utilities.
ML: The first and foremost pipe material selection factor is inherent compatibility. Materials whose long-life performance depends upon linings, coatings, wrappings or cathodic protection should only be used where alternatives are not available. It is far better and more sustainable to use pipes that are inherently well suited for their operating environments, including exposures to contaminated soils. This has contributed greatly to PVC pipes’ rise to become the most-installed product for new water and wastewater systems. Utilities have acquired a true appreciation of PVC pipes’ low-maintenance, corrosion-free performance and resistance to permeation by hydrocarbons at levels normally encountered.
The next important selection factor is strength. Without sufficient pressure capacity and pipe stiffness, optimal long-lived sustainability will be compromised. Pipe wall thickness design must be sufficient to handle all internal and external loadings. This requires proper understanding of a pipe material’s long-term tensile strength and long-term stiffness (modulus of elasticity). In addition, all anticipated loads and stresses must be taken into account. Prudent pipe designs always incorporate an ample safety factor (typically at least 2.0), because unanticipated installation and operation stresses can occur over the life of any pipe.
Lastly, installation and installation costs are selection factors. The type or method of installation may preclude the use of some pipe products and/or joint types. This is certainly true for trenchless installations.
ML: The popularity of PVC and HDPE stems from the first selection factor — these materials are inherently well suited for buried wastewater and water pipe applications. Both are easy to work with and install. However, it is important to recognize that PVC and HDPE are not the same. HDPE is a softer, more bendable plastic, making HDPE pipe more suitable for lower pressure, tight bending radius situations. On the other hand, PVC is a much stronger and stiffer material, which is why PVC pipes are more widely used for direct burial and trenchless installations. PVC pipes require longer bending radii, but also considerably less material to achieve or meet desired strength levels. PVC pipes are stiff enough to permit their direct connection to mechanical valves, non-plastic fittings and various other water and wastewater appurtenances. HDPE pipes are softer and require stiffening rings or other adapters in order to make proper connections. A recent AwwaRF-funded study has confirmed that PVC pipes are resistant to gasoline permeation, as well as permeation by other generally known hydrocarbon contaminants at concentrations normally encountered. All of these factors affect the selection and popularity of PVC and HDPE pipes.
TR: Because of its flexibility and durability, HDPE pipe has been the material of choice for trenchless installation practices almost since the technology first appeared in the mid- to late-s. Furthermore, since a fused joint produces a monolithic pipe string, the ability to pull long lengths and use all trenchless installation practices including HDD, sliplining and pipe bursting favors the use of HDPE pipe. Since HDPE pipe has enjoyed such a long acceptance in trenchless applications, there has been significant research and studies to provide the design engineer and contractor confidence in application and installation. As an example, there are several documents available for the design and installation of polyethylene pipe by directional drilling. The first document is an ASCE Manual of Practice (108). Another is ASTM standard F, which gives detailed design formulas (including acknowledgement of the fused joint) for a directional drill with polyethylene pipe. The Plastics Pipe Institute’s Handbook of PE Pipe also contains multiple chapters on directional drilling and sliplining and the second edition of the PPI handbook, which will be published in February, will include a full chapter on pipe bursting.
Another fundamental reason why HDPE pipe is so widely preferred for trenchless applications is that it has the strength to handle this demanding installation practice. Since HDPE pipe is extremely tough it can withstand the rigorous trenchless installation process and is not affected by scratches and gouges (10 percent of the pipe wall) that are certain to occur. Other materials are more sensitive to this type of damage which will cause premature failure of the piping system. HDPE pipes have the physical properties to handle large pulls.
TR: With the invention of HDPE in the s, many industries looked to this revolutionary material to see if it could improve the performance and economics of currently used materials. The pipe industry was no different. Although one of its first uses as a pipe material was in oil and gas gathering systems in the “oil patch,” its first use in underground utilities occurred in the natural gas distribution market.
Gas utilities were facing an ever-growing number of failures due to corroding steel pipelines. Recognizing the safety threat of leaking gas lines, the gas utilities looked for a material that wouldn’t rust and wouldn’t leak at the joints. Flexible, non-rusting HDPE pipe, with its fused joint filled the void perfectly. Today, 95 percent of gas distribution systems in North America use HDPE pipe accounting for more than 100 million miles of pipe.
In the mid-s, corrugated HDPE pipe was introduced in the agricultural drainage market to replace clay drainage “tiles.” Within 10 years, HDPE pipe became the material of choice. In the late s with the introduction of a smooth interior liner, corrugated HDPE pipe became a formidable competitor to corrugated steel and reinforced concrete pipe in storm water applications.
Today, solid wall HDPE pipe is available in diameters ranging from ½ to 63 in.; corrugated HDPE pipe is available in diameters ranging from 1 in. to 60 inch. HDPE pipe, because of its inherent physical properties, is used in virtually all underground utilities.
ML: Industrial PVC pipe production dates back to the s in the Bitterfeld-Wolfen chemical industry area of Germany. Many of those earliest potable water pipes remain in service. A series of tests on some of those early PVC pipes has been carried out, and the results compared quite well against the current norms. This confirmation of long-term performance provides important documentation regarding PVC pipes’ sustainability.
PVC pipe technology was brought to North America following World War II, and started to take off after the National Sanitation Foundation (NSF) began studying plastic pipe products for water supplies in . NSF certification began in . ASTM began publishing standards for PVC water and wastewater pipes in the s.
In , the American Water Works Association (AWWA) approved its very first plastic pipe standard – AWWA C900, “Standard for Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) Pressure Pipe, 4 inch through 12 inch, for Water.” PVC has grown to be the largest volume plastic pipe material in North America with annual sales in excess of 7.0 billion lbs. PVC pipe diameters range from 0.5to 48 in.
TR: It’s not so much that buying patterns have changed; rather the mindset in the design community has changed. Designers and owners recognize they can’t continue to operate in the same old way. Although they are still looking for the best product for the application, newer materials and installation practices are giving them greater choices than ever before. With more and more information becoming available and continuous improvement in plastic pipes, older, traditional materials such as iron and concrete are giving way to newer construction materials. Designers are also becoming more focused on the environment and taking particular interest in preserving natural resources for a growing country. Sustainability and a desire to conserve energy in every quarter also lend a favorable light to HDPE pipe.
ML: Ever mounting numbers of satisfied water and wastewater customers have kept those as the two primary end-use markets for buried PVC pipes. PVC pipes now also dominate the budding market for reclaimed water pipe. The acceptance and availability of larger PVC pipe diameters has resulted in a trend toward the increased use of larger pipes.
ML: Technological advances in manufacturing process controls and monitoring, together with equipment enhancements, have enabled PVC pipe product performance and consistency to improve. This progress has been steady and evolutionary, not revolutionary.
The development of several innovative joint designs has enabled PVC pipe producers to offer a variety of PVC pipe options that are very well suited for trenchless pipe situations. The same properties that have made PVC the market leader among pipe materials for water and sewer applications in North America make PVC a preferred material choice in trenchless applications. There are four trenchless technology methods for which PVC pipes are extremely well suited. These are Horizontal Directional Drilling (HDD), Sliplining, Tight Fit Structural Liner and Pipebursting.
TR: One hallmark of the HDPE industry overall, and the HDPE pipe industry in particular is the constant effort to improve base resins and pipe design. From a materials standpoint, the most recent innovation has been the introduction and recognition of high-performance HDPE resins for pressure pipe allocations, specifically PE . These resins are not the same old materials with a new name. These are new technology HDPE materials – third or even fourth generation – with performance capabilities surpassing previous grades. Even though the previous grades of PE materials have an excellent performance history in gas and water service, the HDPE industry continues to challenge itself – the same is not readily noticeable with other base materials and pipes. These new resins take performance to another level allowing them to be used with higher design stresses without sacrificing safety or design life.
HDPE resin and pipe have superior resistance to failure and rapid crack propagation (RCP). These are essential properties for HDD applications where scratching and gouging of the pipe are a fact of life. HDPE pipe can be gouged up to 10 percent (studies have shown even 20 percent) of the wall thickness with no detrimental effects to the long-term performance of the pipe. Resistance to RCP means that the monolithic piping system of heat fused HDPE pipe will not be susceptible to rapid cracking that can run for hundreds or even thousands of feet with catastrophic results.
Continued improvements in pipe design, specifically in the corrugated drainage pipe industry (storm water management) has allowed for greater burial depths and improved joint performance. Today’s HDPE corrugated pipe is significantly better than the original product first introduced in the mid-s. State and federal Departments of Transportations, municipalities and private enterprises are the beneficiaries of these efforts.
As technologies in the petrochemical market continue to develop, the underground utilities industry can expect continuing improvement. This of course begs the question: What has the metal and concrete industries done to improve their products?
ML: The utilities that are not yet using PVC pipe usually cite insufficient strength and/or stiffness. The facts are that PVC pipes come in a full range of pressure ratings/classes and stiffnesses. While the minimum pipe stiffness of 46 lbs/in./in. for standard strength PVC gravity sewer pipes has proven to be good for burial depths in excess of 40 ft, PVC pipes are available with pipe stiffness values up to 1,019 lbs/in./in. The embedment requirements for PVC water pipe are no different than those for ductile iron pipe. Likewise, while most pressurized water systems operate within a 60- to 120-psi range, PVC pipe pressure ratings/classes go up to 305 psi; with short-term burst pressure minimums as high as 985 psi. Clearly PVC pipes afford more than sufficient strength to handle the full range of sewer and water system operating conditions.
Some utilities are concerned about soil contaminants permeating through plastic water pipes and associated human health risks. The fact is that PVC pipes provide a barrier to permeation and are not penetrated at contamination concentrations normally found. This PVC pipe benefit/protection was recently confirmed in a research published by AwwaRF. The AWWA Research Foundation study (published in early ) determined that PVC has superior hydrocarbon permeation resistance to gasoline and BTEX’s in both laboratory and field study conditions.
TR: That HDPE pipe is not as strong or durable as pipe made from steel or concrete is a common misconception. Of course this is not the case. HDPE pipe is a truly engineered product designed for specific purposes and long service life. In fact, it has been our experience that when traditional materials cannot handle a specific application either due to aggressive flows, soils or other unique conditions or installation practices demand trenchless techniques, HDPE pipe gets the nod. Our biggest frustration is that we get the most challenging applications but not the bread-and-butter uses such as potable water, sanitary sewer and storm water management applications.
We recognize HDPE pipe, although it has been used for nearly 50 years in the gas industry and more than 40 years in storm water management systems, is a “new kid on the block,” and we have to continually educate and promote our products to the design and specification community. As a result, our first step is to create a greater awareness to the features and benefits of HDPE pipe. We continue to conduct research, give educational seminars and promote case studies that verify the broad applications HDPE pipe enjoys. Secondly, we have to work on gaining approval by the design and specifying firms and agencies to allow engineers to employ our products. Lastly, the end user or owner will accept the product only when they are confident it is the best product for their specific application or need.
TR: HDPE pipe, in our opinion, is the best product for developing a truly sustainable infrastructure. From its low energy cost to produce, ship and install, to its superior joint performance in all applications, to its resistance to rust and abrasion and finally its short and long term economic advantages, we believe there is no other material that approaches the performance and versatility of HDPE pipe.
ML: PVC pipe combines the ageless durability that comes with a corrosion-free material with the overall strength and stiffness required to handle both water and sewer system demands at a cost that is comparable or less than the alternatives. PVC is arguably the most sustainable and cost-effective of all pipe materials.
ML: Consumers need to know that there are options when it comes to pipe materials and products. Moreover, within a given material such as PVC, a broad range of product strengths exists that allow for cost-efficient design for almost any situation. Single product or material specifications should be the rare exception and not the rule given these options. As the No. 1 water and wastewater pipe material, most utilities across the country have come to appreciate the installation and operation benefits that PVC pipes and fittings provide.
Sean Moth
Welcome to ISCO insights, the podcast. My name is Sean Moth, great to have you along, as always thrilled to be joined by Mike James, Vice President of Business Development and sales at ISCO. We’re going to talk large diameter pipe, we’re thinking Big Mike, I know you’re about as busy as they get in the business. We really appreciate your time.
Mike James
Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.
Sean Moth
Give me a little background on how long you’ve been at ISCO and what you were what you’ve been doing here.
Mike James
Well, I’ve been at ISCO for about 16 years in lots of different roles. It is go mainly in the West, but also some international work and, and really business development all over the country. been in the industry for about 30 years and just have lots of different experiences in the industry, which I love.
Sean Moth
The definition of large pipe has become a little bit of a moving target. I’m sure as you got into the industry, I’m thinking maybe 36 was large pipe but at least from an HDPE standpoint, where’s that target standing now? Because I’ve, I’ve heard some different views. But tell me about the evolution of large diameter HDPE pipe?
Mike James
Yeah, you’re exactly right. I remember being a young guy in the industry and buying our first 36 inch fusion machine. And I think it was like $100,000 machine and what is a big deals like, wow, this is big pipe, big machine. So on. Over the years, it’s gravitated up to a 48 inch machine and bigger pipe, and then you get into the 54 or 65 inch range, which is kind of where we’ve been for a long time. And we stalled out in the US or North American market kind of in that inch range. Until recently, and now pipe is much bigger than that. And in my job, luckily is in the business development side. Being able to travel the world and work on really cool projects all over the world, I’ve been exposed to some really cool opportunities where pipe is bigger. So as an example, you go to the Middle East or you go to Asia or you go even to Australia and New Zealand, they’re making pipe, you know, and Abend up to millimeter. And today, it’s even larger, you know, millimeter, millimeter millimeter diameter pipe that can actually be fused and welded is available in other markets today. So that’s, that’s kind of where it’s evolved over the last 30 years. It started Yeah, 36 inch and today’s much, much bigger.
Sean Moth
And I understand as its evolved to that. Now the evolution continues with wall thickness and, and how that impacts the size of the pipe. And its its sustainability in terms of its structure. And that’s changing and evolving as we speak.
Mike James
Yeah, so the diameters, of course have gotten bigger the fusion equipment is is bigger, but also the resin advancement is much better. So we’ve gone through two or three different generations of resin, and we will continue to improve on the resin side of things, which does a couple things, it helps you with the pressure rating capability and helps the extruders to extrude much thicker or heavier wall pipe, you know, when you get into larger diameters, like we’re talking about to maintain the same pressure rating or Dr class, your pipe wall thicknesses get really thick. So you have to be able to first of all extrude that and make sure that the pipe stays round and in shape that you want. And you also have to make fittings out of it as well. So maintaining those wall thicknesses, and the pressure ratings, that’s gotten better as well. Obviously,
Sean Moth
large diameter and other forms, some of the legacy systems has been around a little bit. And while it it feels new to people, you touched on the Middle East and overseas. I mean, it’s not new in Europe, and in some of those other countries. It’s something they’ve been doing for a while, domestically, was a little difficult to get it over here. But now that it’s being produced domestically, it’s my understanding, that’s kind of what’s revolutionized the movement toward the big pipe here in the US. Is that an accurate assessment? It
Mike James
is? Yeah, so big pipe has been around for a long time. It’s just an HDPE or the polyethylene world. You know, we’re we’re a little bit behind on that, but we’re catching up quickly. So other materials, you know, whether it’s steel pipe, or concrete, or fiberglass, or ductile iron, you know, some of those pipes have been around for a while. But, but today, we have the capability of of in big pipe or mega pipe, you know, kind of meeting some of those same requirements.
Sean Moth
If you are looking for more details, kindly visit 36 Inch HDPE Pipe.
So, when we talk about HDPE, as opposed to some of these other systems and piping systems, the advantages of large diameter really reflect the same advantages that two inch, eight inch 36 inch do in terms of you’re still leak free, you know, you still working with Fusion, you don’t have the jointing it’s still got the flexibility, the responsiveness to seismic activity, you know, the list kind of goes on and on. Are there other benefits for large diameter that maybe are a little bit different than the smaller diameter?
Mike James
Yeah, I think there’s it depends on the type A project you’re working on, but all of the things you just hit on are the same key benefits just in much bigger diameters. We do a lot with large pipe in the offshore side of things as well. So on land, you can do it. But offshore, we have such advantages to be able to pull water in for a power plant or an effluent line, maybe offshore or even some of the really cool stuff that we’re doing today, for offshore wind, and diesel plants and things like that. Our pipes offer so many advantages over conventional pipes and the longevity of our system. We don’t know we say 50 years, we say 100 years. But in some of those applications, heck, we might be around way longer than you and I are around. And that’s a good thing.
Sean Moth
I kind of sensed that to be the case. I think the one I didn’t touch on is the corrosion into circulation, which I know is a a big point with the ductile iron. And that and that does a, a huge advantages. There’s just it’s almost an ambivalent reaction to everything around it and everything inside of it, which has to be a huge advantage. It is
Mike James
one of our biggest advantages. And I think as an industry, promoting that, and educating our customers on the fact that we can offer these diameters and all of those same advantages. You have a corrosion resistant, leak free system, that’s going to be around for a very, very long time, maintenance free. If you’re a if you’re a taxpayer, or you’re an owner of a project. Those are really, really big benefits. You’re not having to replace this pipe. You know, I’ll give you an example. We did a job in California a few years ago for an almond farm. Yeah. And it was really good experience for me. When I went out to that job site and talking to the owners of that job, the steel pipe that they had in the ground, it was like 14 years old, and it had leaks and things in it already at 14 years old. This was a private big farm, but a private owner. And I know the pipe that we put in the ground now is going to be there for 100 years, and they’re not going to have any issues. So that’s important.
Sean Moth
It’s a perfect segue, I want to talk about markets. And I know that irrigation and canal replacement is maybe at the forefront, especially out west where the humidity levels are low. The ground is dry, there’s a lot of seepage problems, you referring to Baker farms and fireball California, that was two and a half miles of 54 inch Dr 17 HDPE pipe with multiple sidewall connections. And I don’t know that it was revolutionary in terms of the job. But I know some of the fusion equipment in the size kind of opened some eyes as that project came to fruition. And that was
Mike James
a fun project. It was our very first project that we brought the macro a talon fusion machine out, which is their biggest fusion machine, first job to get on that site. And it was a great experience. Along with that the outlets that the farm needed, the sidewall outlets, you know, conventionally you would have to do that in you know, have to well that in the field or cut out a very large excavation to put a tee in, we were able to take some of our custom equipment and actually do sidewall fusions in the field in a much smaller footprint at a much less cost performing that work. And it was just a really good job to to showcase all of our expertise on Mike
Sean Moth
James is our guest from ISCO and the VP of Business Development and sales. We’re going to hit cost effectiveness and sustainability at every turn. And we’ll we’ll kind of save it for the end of maybe specifically focus on it. But you can’t help but talk about those two, I guess. I want to call them buzzwords, but they’re really not I mean, everybody cares about money. And everybody cares about sustainability. We talk about money steineke Reservoir and Vernal, Utah the UNC system there they had a 12 mile canal open water canal. They were losing 25% of their water annually and I think if you think of water out west maybe it’s different in other parts of the US or the world but I mean water is money with the drought that’s been hitting everybody out west you guys installed 78 inch HDPE which was the largest diameter HDPE high pressure water pipe in US history. It’s it’s a work in progress because as they can get financially in a position to continue to do that they will but another groundbreaking performance utilizing the talent I know the techno Dewey was involved as well. But kind of a trend there with that canal conversion because you’re giving back basically 25% of their profits so to speak. Yeah,
Mike James
it’s it’s pretty amazing. You know, I live in Arizona, right so we’re pretty dry climate of course, but really any of the western states are in need of this and what most people don’t realize is you know, a lot of our drinking water for instance my drinking water in Tucson, Arizona. It comes from a long ways away comes from the mountains in Colorado. Yeah makes its way all way down the Colorado River in an open canal, you know, to Phoenix and down to Tucson. And so the seepage that you’re talking about that goes into the ground or the evaporation, both plus, you know, the other things like, you have an open canal that’s dangerous for newer things for animals, for people, and so forth, and content contamination, when you can put that in a pipe and eliminate all of those factors. That is huge. So if I’m the owner of an irrigation district, the one of the most precious commodities that we have today is water, especially in the West, there’s water wars going on in California, there’s billionaires buying up land. So they have the water rights, right. It’s it’s, it’s the gold rush in the current climate that we’re in right now. So losing water to seepage or evaporation. You don’t need to do it, let’s put it in a pipe and and save that water. It’s precious for us.
Sean Moth
Yeah, it’s funny to Baker farms and the static or project both could probably be a podcast on their own. Because you mentioned you know, obviously the savings that they had a better way of gauging water usage on the on the the offsets from that from that irrigation system, than they’re able to bury the line putting put grass over the top. It was low impact because it was going through neighborhoods, it was going through farms, and that there’s more information on ISCO’s website about that Stanica project, it really is a fascinating one. But the irrigation canal replacement definitely is a high presence with large pipe. Another is the sewer and wastewater. And I know there’s a project up of British Columbia, that was pretty remarkable. It was a float and sink 88 inch HDPE I think that’s still the largest solid wall HDPE outfall in North America. And it gave ISCO another opportunity to kind of pioneer because I think that was about a mile offshore and maybe explain to explain a little bit about that project and maybe get into the float and sink aspect and and what that variable is. Yeah,
Mike James
that’s a good example, our Canadian team has done a great job of promoting large diameter pipe up there. And this was a wastewater and offshore outfall line. And what most people don’t realize is there’s there’s a ton of these around or in lakes or around the coasts, you just don’t see them. So they’re kind of out of sight out of mind. But when you flush the toilet or you’ve put something down the drain, it has to go to a wastewater treatment plant and then they they get rid of that water somewhere, right, a lot of it goes back into our bodies of water. And this, this is a good example. This is a wastewater out shore outfall line using HDPE. So fused joints, Liam. And what we do is we work with the marine contractors, and they’ll take that pipe and put concrete weights on it and take it off shore and seek it down at the bottom of a lake or reservoir or the ocean in some cases. And
Sean Moth
in those cases Mike, and correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re all but eliminating any other type of piping. HDPE is unique in its quality that you can weld on site floated and then sync. It can’t be done with anything else. Well,
Mike James
you can you can do it with maybe some other materials like steel, pipe and fiberglass. But there’s definitely some advantages with the toughness and the flexibility of HDPE being able to weld that up on shore and pull it out into a body of water and then go through the syncing process. There’s some definite advantages of using ATP.
Sean Moth
No question. I know we spoke a while back about the uses of large diameter pipe and mining. And those advances and I think you mentioned South America in particular, there was some some projects there. Maybe you could expand upon that a little bit. Yeah, I’d
Mike James
love to Yeah, the mining industry is an industry I grew up in Arizona where the copper copper Yeah, it’s a big it’s a big deal. And I kind of cut my teeth in the mining industry. The mining industry uses our pipe and has for a long time in the most toughest most like corrosion applications you can think of to mine copper, you need sulfuric acid to mine copper. So you’re putting your pipe in a pretty tough application to mine. Gold that you cyanide. Most people don’t know that I did not. And you know, we’re in this sustainable world. We’re in to electric cars, we’re into all kinds of things like that these days. That all needs copper, you need gold, you need lithium, and the mining industry for us is very important. So in the mining applications, there’s there’s corrosion issues. There’s tailings and were issues. They use a lot of HDPE and they have for a long time. So the job we’re talking about down in, down in Chile, one of my favorite places to go. The people are fantastic down there and it’s a great place to do business. The world’s largest copper mine is called escondida and it’s in the heart of Chile in the Atacama desert and a really high elevation. Massive copper mine is under believably big. The tailings pond for that mine is, it’s unbelievable. I mean, I can’t explain how big it is. But I look at this tailings pond and it just goes from miles and miles and miles. So they use large diameter HDPE pipe for their tailings application. And the job we did with them. About a year and a half ago, was the first job in South America where we sent the Talon down to weld up this pipe, and it was a perfect application I knew it was where you could take and stretch out the pipe, weld it all up and just build this giant tailings tailings pipeline is a really cool job.
Sean Moth
I’m sure many more applications in the mining industry, desalinization, we said sustainable sustainability was going to be a talking point. And I know that there’s a lot of decel work, especially in California, I know there’s some coastal work that that’s being done with large diameter, but it feels like that’s one of those that we’re going to look at the growth rate from now to years from now. And it’s just going to be a steady climb upward.
Mike James
Yeah, kind of going back to the west. Again, we need water. Right. So how do you get water? Right? If we don’t have it? How do you get it, you can pull it through a diesel plant. Now it’s very expensive to do that diesel water is expensive. It’s used in lots of areas around the world, not as much in the US for a lot of reasons. But we did have the largest diesel plant in the Western Hemisphere built in Carlsbad, California. Beautiful area, right. Nobody really wants it in their backyard. But we need water. Yeah, there’s a giant plant that was built in in Carlsbad. And we were able to supply some large diameter pipe for the intake line for that D cell plant. Sure. And then when I was traveling around the world, and in the Middle East a lot, there’s diesel plants all over they mean Yeah, so they’re used to using it there. And historically, they would use fiberglass pipe or maybe steel pipe. Today they’re using HDPE pipe just like we did in Carlsbad. So it was a good win for us. And it was a great job to to get some poly pipe out on the on the other DSL Yeah,
Sean Moth
to desalinate, you have to have saltwater come through. And I’m sure that the pipe isn’t always happy to have that, that saline coming through it. municipally as somebody that’s a little bit new to this, especially compared to someone like you, it feels like I don’t want to badmouth people, but there’s kind of a stubborn quality to some of the legacy piping systems. And I know that Duluth, Minnesota is a case study that we’ve looked at where water mains left and right that were made of ductile iron years old are failing and and to be able to replace those with HDPE gives them the solution for 100 years or more like you pointed out, it’s not going to have any leaks, as we pointed out, leak free. What is the future for municipal systems and HDPE? Because they’re large undertakings, obviously, but they’re also going to require large diameter pipe and it feels like another market that the smart money is to head that direction, even though it may cause some headaches and may well we haven’t done it that way in the past. But it seems like the right move.
Mike James
Yeah, it is the right move. There’s there’s a lot of work to be done, though, as an industry, our job is to go out and educate and continue to educate the challenges that we face with a legacy municipality is you’ve got people in there that have just done it that way for so long. And it’s they’re in their comfort zone and they have crews and maintenance people set up to do it the same way. They don’t really want to change. So change is our biggest challenge. When we what we see now though, is as new people enter into a municipality, a new engineer, or young up and comer that’s maybe taking a leadership role. They’re open to new ideas. And so when we continue to educate, and show them the advantages of HDPE, a leak proof system, the longevity, the corrosion, resistance, all of those things are huge benefits. We just have we have to educate them, though on all of the maintenance side of things and how to install it. And it’s different, but once they adapt to it, it’s it’s a game changer. So there’s a lot to do. There’s a lot of work to be done there. And we have to do that as an industry, not just ISCO. Sure, our entire industry has to continue to do that.
Sean Moth
Yeah, the two things I’ll say about that. One, we used to put water through hollowed out elements, cypress trees at one point. So we have moved on and it’s worked. And you know, it’s one of those situations to where if I’m a politician and trying to save my taxpayers money, that always seems like a really good marriage when you can help save money. And this is obviously a money saving move, whether the cost is similar different or otherwise, you’re talking about installing a new ductile iron or PVC system three or four or five times in addition to repairs over the course of the life of the one HDPE system.
Mike James
Yeah, it goes back to the education part of you know the things the things that That sometimes drives me crazy. But we’re continuing to educate, you know, they use our pipe in, in a lot of municipal applications like for directional drilling or for pipe bursting, or trenchless. Technology, ways of installing it. They’ll use it for that. And then they transition back to the conventional pipes once once they do that. But as long as we continue to educate, and you’re right, the politicians need to know it. Were the taxpayers, right, they should be open to new ideas. Our job is to continue to educate and show them showing the advantage. That’s what we’re
Sean Moth
here for a couple more applications. We’ve talked about hydroelectric. And I think we go back to Central America, if I’m not mistaken, but taking water in the mountains and having it go down an incline and creating power into a turbine. And and obviously, large diameter comes into play there. Maybe talk a little bit about hydroelectric. And then I think there’s some some thermal energy conversion that you’re doing in the ocean as well.
Mike James
Yeah, yeah, there’s some fun projects, the the first, hydro electric, small hydro will define this because there’s big hydro that we’re our pipes probably can’t be used today. But for small hydro, or mini hydro. There’s some great applications where our pipe can be used, either on the entire pipeline, or even a portion of it. So this job in Guatemala that shalom, a project that we worked on in Guatemala, was the first job to use HDPE pipe for a small hydro project, and they collected the water out of the mountains, it was a private farm. And Guatemala needed more power to the grid. So they were encouraging people to build small hydro, they were able to use our pipe to collect all of this water, bring it to a really large diameter tank. And then from the tank, they were able to put it into a pin stock line, which would go down and spin the turbine and create power and send it to the grid. And so it was kind of a hybrid project where HDPE was used on the collection lines. And then steel pipe for higher pressure ratings was used on the penstock line. So it was a win win. And in my opinion, sure. And the owner of the project got all of the benefits of HDPE on this really cool, curvy mountainous terrain. I remember walking down the job with him. And about halfway through, as we’re going around these mountains and curves and up and down and everything else he’s like, Mike, you keep telling me that we don’t need elbows and all of these locations I go Rudolph, you don’t. And you’re gonna need a few, but you don’t need as many as you’re used to. Yeah, he was like, it’s unbelievable, because we’re used to putting in steel elbows with every change of direction that we have. And that’s very expensive and very costly. You have to restrain it, you have to well, then you have to protect it. And that’s where it leaks. And we we had a few elbows on that job, but boy, we eliminated a ton of them. And he was able to use our pipe and just curve around all these mountain terrains and, and install a really cool system was one of the funnest jobs I’ve worked on in my life. And it was, because we were adding value, I felt really proud when we got done with that job that we’re adding some real value. From that job, we were able to do two or three more other projects, and we’re continuing to do more down there. So it was a win for us.
Sean Moth
And I may have this wrong but ocean thermal energy conversion, taking seawater creating power, with power plants near large bodies of water offshore, I think you called it OTech Oh tech is this another large pipe application that’s maybe going to boom, down the road? Yeah, there’s
Mike James
there’s potential for it for sure. It’s a it’s a really, it’s a really unique opportunity for us to provide some pipe for for ocean thermal energy. Or there’s another thing called SWAC, sea water air conditioning, where you can use our pipe. And really what you’re doing is you’re taking the cool or cold sea water down to the lower depth, you’re bringing it up into warmer, warmer body of water. And through the OTech process, they can actually generate power with it, which is really cool. It’s clean. It’s expensive to do right now. It’s challenging. But I can see in the future that that’s going to be a way for some power to be made for maybe some remote applications. I think our US military’s looking at it as well. It’s not new, it’s been around for a long time. But the advancements with HDPE today are are allowing them to consider this in some applications, just like sea water air conditioning would be as well. If
Sean Moth
you could talk a little bit about pressure ratings and the capabilities there too. I know that there are many cases especially when we talk about some of our like our spiral light, which I know is a large diameter and slip lining where you can replace a bigger pipe with a smaller HDPE pipe and because of that the smooth walls on the inside the flow rates are higher. You can get away with smaller pipe for what you do usually would be a bigger job but in terms of pressure ratings in those capabilities. How does the large diameter compare?
Mike James
Yeah, it’s still it’s a it’s a ratio of Walther thickness and what we can handle. But again, as I said earlier, as the resin advances and the resin gets better, and the wall thicknesses, if we can maintain them on the extrusion process, we’re able to maintain pressure readings today on large diameter pipe that we would have never been able to do, you know, 20 years ago. So that opens up opportunities for us, not only on pressure, but also on temperature as well. You know, if we can, if we can maintain pressure, and even a little elevated temperature, that helps us well. So it all goes back to the capabilities of HDB. Today that will continue to get better every single year
Sean Moth
fascinating. fittings, you mentioned that a little bit earlier, you being able to fabricate and create fittings is not unique to small diameter, it’s you have all the same capabilities basically with large pipe is just obviously on a bigger scale, it’s
Mike James
on a much bigger scale. And I think you know, making pipe is one portion of it, you know, being able to extrude large diameter pipe, it takes a lot of space, a lot of room, there’s a lot of capital investment, the same thing goes with fittings, right, you have to have the capability of, of manufacturing the fittings, and that’s really where ISCO steps in, we’re really good at that we have great fabrication shops, we have great technology. And I think we’re leading leading the charge on that. But also, it’s big capital outlay as well. So you have to have the equipment to come in to be able to fabricate, so they need to be married together along with the Fusion equipment, right. So you need all three of those to be able to do a complete system,
Sean Moth
you’re so good at segues, that was the next subject I have. Because one thing I’m amazed that with ISCO is, it’s not about solving a problem with pipe, it’s about solving a problem with a solution. And it’s all inclusive from what the the folks do with the CAD drawings to helping you decide how much you need, what you need, what fittings you need, where they need to be fabricated, where they’re delivered. And, and with that as the Fusion, we brag on leak free, leak free now that we say that with an asterisk, there are companies that can handle HDPE. If the fusion is not done, right, it’s not leak free. That’s the caveat. It has to be done correctly. At ISCO Certified with McElroy and the great relationship we have with them and their fusion equipment, our staff comes in and certifies people to perform the fusion or performs it for them or with them or both. Talk a little bit about that, that fusion and fitting relationship, how it how it marries, and how valuable that is to a client to an engineer to a customer to an owner. Well,
Mike James
one of our tag lines is we’re a total piping solutions provider. Right? So we had clients in yesterday. And the cool thing was I took them out to a river port, our fabrication shop here. And their perception of us coming into the visit and leaving the visit was totally different. As I spoke to, to our client yesterday, the President of this of this company, when he left our fab shop he had, he had changed his view of us like 100, navy, he thought that we were just a pipe distribution, he came out of it going, Wow, you guys have great capability. So bringing all three of those components together to be a total piping solutions provider is really what we do. So it’s the pipe, it’s the fabrication and, and, and structures that go with your system. But it’s also all of the fusion equipment that you need. And we have a very large fleet of fusion machines. We have great technicians. We have great technical people here. We bring all of those resources to play when we get that first call from a client, hey, I’m thinking about this project, is there any way you can use HTTP, we love that first call. That’s when we go to work. And sometimes you don’t see the benefits of that for years down the road. The sales cycle on these jobs sometimes can be a long time. But there’s a lot of work that gets done behind the scenes, and we pull in all the resources that we can to help. And that’s up to me. That’s fun to see all of that come together.
Sean Moth
Yeah, yeah, maybe one of those calls will come to fruition. listening to the podcast again, we’re joined by Mike James, VP of Business Development and sales at ISCO. And we’re getting close to the finish line here. I think we probably could do an entire podcast on the Talon but take a look at some of those Steinacher videos in that and fireball and see that that machine in action it it picks up the pipe from underneath it travels along the route. It’s fascinating. solid wall profile wall, give me just a primer on the differences, the similarities, the uses, applications, etc when it comes to large diameter. So
Mike James
yeah, we have both right, which is great. So we have the solid wall pipe that gets fused together has all of the advantages that we’ve been talking about the pressure ratings, all that. That’s a great piping system for the right application, the profile wall pipe, which is going to be a little bit lighter weight, right? It’s a different manufacturing process. It’s really meant for a different application. So it’s going to typically be for either really low pressures or gravity systems or the capabilities are really really good Well, you might have to deep bury some pipe, you know, there’s a lot of gravity systems out there, maybe you don’t need a pressure application. And you don’t need to spend the money on maybe a solid wall system, we can go with window spiral light and in a profile wall pipe. And so there’s both advantages, the capabilities of the diameters are even a little bit bigger profile wall pipe today, we can manufacture up to four meter diameter, I believe, our 120 inch pipe today, globally four meter pipe, in profile,
Sean Moth
you know, we get that that European influence with the metric measures, which I’m still getting used to, but I was just on a job site, just down the road, St. Croix, Indiana with some some culvert replacement where Brian Harrington 96 inch spiralite Going into dual corrugated metal that had rusted out and it it is fascinating. And again, that could be another podcast in and of itself. But certainly, the versatility of large diameter pipe is there. We’ve touched on sustainability, Mike, it’s fascinating to me, it’s the sustainability begins with the production, it’s more sustainable, the production process of HDPE. And then you load it and ship it, and the sustainability continues there because of the weight. You know, if you’re shipping ductile iron, you maybe need more trucks, they work harder, you know, you’re pouring emissions into the environment, you get to the site, it’s a lower impact. You can do trenchless, installing, you know, you can you can do the directional drilling, you can do the the other trenchless applications, you know, it’s the eliminating leaks and saving water. It’s almost staggering how sustainable it is. And I think it’s ironic to that people want to put the stigma of plastics on it not being the case. But it is just the opposite. HDPE is the most sustainable solution when it comes to piping systems.
Mike James
Yeah, it’s, it’s an interesting topic, because when you when you talk about sustainability, we do have a lot of advantages. And there’s a huge impact on it, right? When you look at the entire lifecycle of the piping system from the very beginning, like you talked about from production, to the very end of the lifecycle, which by the way, our lifecycle is going to be much longer than most traditional pipes serve. That’s a that’s a huge factor right there. But everything you just hit on is super important. But we do have the stigma of of plastics, right? And how are they made, and so forth. But I think what our society just needs to understand is like, we talked about electricity, or electric vehicles, and so forth, fossil fuels, well look at how the batteries are made, batteries are made using copper, and lithium and gold and other precious metals. And all those things have to come out of the earth, and you have to use piping materials to be able to process that. So we have to blend all of that together. We can’t just we can’t look at sustainability. From just one view, we have to look at it from many, many different views. And I think I think there’s more education to be done there for sure.
Sean Moth
Yeah. And your point is well taken that we install ISCO installs and HDPE system a solution instead of 18 years later having to dig at this spot with more emissions and more disruption and more road closures to repair it. And, and here and there. You know, you do that over the course of the 100 year lifetime. And it’s it’s almost a measurable. So certainly sustainability. And as we mentioned costs that kind of go hand in hand. The finally I just I want to ask you about the future in general, if you’re a dreamer if you’re if you’re just taking a realistic view of what’s down the road, but what do you see the future of large piping?
Mike James
Well, I think I’m excited about it. First of all, because I’ve seen the advancements over the last 30 years of where we started to where we are today. So I’m excited to know that we’re continuing to grow. We’re leading the charge on bringing the best technology to North America. So it’s always exciting to see that, you know, I’m excited to ISCO because I see the the young talent that we have coming into our company that’s going to be leading these efforts for the next 30 years or more. So I’m excited about it. But I also think the large diameter pipe, we’re just scratching the surface, I think, you know, 20 years from now, we’re going to be doing some really cool, large diameter, even bigger projects. And the stuff we work on today is really exciting. I’m working on a job in Colorado right now, that has been in existence since President Kennedy signed the bill into office, right? It’s as old as me. And we’re just getting started on the final tail end of this piping portion of it that’s going to go for the next 15 years. It’s it’s probably the lifecycle of this entire project is 75 years before it’s done. It’s pretty amazing. So we’re impacting that. It’s pretty cool to see that and how long it’s been in existence and where we’re at today. And then you get to do it all over again, but I’m really excited about I think the technology, the the equipment, the projects are always going to be there, you know, our populations getting more, the need for power, the need for heat the need for water, we’re in every one of those aspects when you when you turn on your light switch and power is made, you’re using our pipe to make that power. When you turn your gas furnace, your heater on that gas pipe that brings gas to your home today is polyethylene pipe. And we’re not going away. So excited about it.
Sean Moth
If you have more questions, and you want to maybe get a little deeper and deeper dive into large pipe, you can register for our webinar on ISCO’s website. That’ll be March 30. If you found this podcast, either not soon enough to catch the webinar or a little bit after they are archived on the website as well. We’re looking forward to more great conversations. We can only hope that the guests are as great as you might we really appreciate your time and look forward to maybe having another conversation with you down the road. Thanks for having me. All right, Mike James, our guest on ISCO insights podcast. Again, if you have any questions, head to our website, we’d be happy to talk to you about any possible solutions. Thanks for listening
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