I am looking for opinions on Deutz engines. Specifically for irrigation. I grow rice and run 10-12 power units an average of 750 - hrs. per yr. I have heard of savings in the 1 to 1.5 gallon an hour range. Running this many hours with high diesel costs would be a big savings if true. I now primarily run Deere engines due to parts and service availability. Many of my older Deere units have high hours and will need replacing in the next couple of years. Dont think fuel prices are coming down any time soon so I need more efficent engines. So, fire away on price, longevity, overhaul cost or anything else you can think of about these engines. Any help is greatly appreciated. This board is a great resource, where else can you pick the brains of this many people for unbiased advice.
Tom
Mount Vernon, WALet me start by saying that I am not speaking from experience here, only speculating based on what I think is true. I can't imagine an air-cooled Deutz (assuming you're looking at an air cooled model ) being more efficient than a water cooled model for pumping irrigation. An air cooled model still has to turn a fan. A water cooled model does not. Figuring a fan at full tilt consumes about 5% or so of an engine's HP, this has to add up over the long haul.
Some will say that a water cooled model still has to turn a water pump. Maybe so, but that amount is minimal compared to the HP required to drive a fan.We've got three of them. I'm not an expert, but you know everyone has an opinion as well as certain other parts of their body.
I can't speak about fuel comparisons, but I can tell you we've got a 6 cylinder running a 125kw that uses 4gallon per hour, pumping gpm with 2 submersible pumps and a 7 tower corner. The other two are on small systems, both of them are 4 cylinder motors on 40 kw generators, one pumps 650 gpm the other pumps 475. The first one is running a solid 2 gph, the second about 1.75 gph. Both of them are driving submersible pumps and electric pivots.
We've never had anything else to compare them to so I don't know if that is good or bad. One of the little ones will probably break 10,000 hours this summer, the other one is in the hour range. I can't remember for sure, but I think the 6 cylinder is around hours.
The only thing we did to them was get them into the dealer and let them run the overhead and check timing etc on them. Nothing major, they looked at the generators while they were there, all 3 are Lima's. We put a new carrier bearing in the end while we had them there. If memory serves me we spent about $ total for the 3 of them. We had a couple of fan bearings go out while we were running so we changed the third one out also. Not a huge item. I think we're on our third set of belts on them.
We change the oil once a week when we are running 24/7, change the air cleaner oil at the start of each season. The 6 cyl also has a bypass filter on the oil. Seems like they get a little grimier (I know that's not a real word ) than our tractor motors do and every couple years we hire a mobile wash to come wash off the oil etc. that has stuck to them. Gunk tends to accumulate around the cooling fins even if you are careful. They only charge us $100 and do a great job. It would be a real hassle for us to get a high pressure washer to them because we'd have to take a generator to run it and a tank for water.
You have to watch where the crank case breather vents out because they tend to want to suck it back in the cooling fan, but that may be a problem with other brands also sucking through the radiator.
Our number one complaint about them is mice tend to get into all the air cooling fins. If we are there when they shut down you can open up the side panel which helps, but if they shut down with the pivot sis then the panel is closed and warm and in 24 h ours they have a nest in them. They are a real pain to get out you really need to have an air compressor and blow out all the fins to make sure you don't have one blocked and scorch a cylinder wall.
Second complaint is there is no way to drain the oil filter before you take it off, no matter what you do it is going to make a mess and run all over the side of the motor or you will use up a roll of towels trying to keep it from it. We've even tried to poke a hole and let it drain out, no matter what you do there is another shot of oil that drains out of the overhead lines after you crack it from the base.
We went with Deutz because that is what our irrigation equp. dealer was selling and using. We had heard really good things about Lima generators and felt we'd rather get what we thought was a good generator and deal with a motor that was unknown to us. Our service comes out of Diesel Power in Omaha and for what little we've needed so far they have been ok to work with.
If I was doing it again I think I would worry less about the generator and stick to something that I can get local service on. All things being equal I'd probably go with the Deere or if you had good service from Cat or Cummins I would not be scared of either of them. A dealer who had rental units in stock would mean more to me than the actual brand if it was any of the 3 I mentioned.
I hope this helps, remember it's worth exactly what you paid for it : )
Ray
WyomingBern, remember when we pushed a pencil around on irrigation engines for this outfit?
Link to Dingbo
I seem to recall it was a six-cylinder Deutz, liquid-cooled, with a heat exchanger to use the irrigation water for cooling that came out best in efficiency, followed by the NH Genesis engine. We reckoned the best thing to do was ditch the cooling fan and cool the engine coolant with the heat exchanger. I seem to recall that we found efficiencies (on paper ) up in the 24 HP-hr/gal range.
From owning two Deutz air-cooled engines in Hesston balers, I can say that they are reliable, very well made engines that always start without a block heater or ether. If one does go with air-cooled Deutz engines, it is vital to keep the cooling fins clean. Other than that, I have absolutely no complaints about them. Easy to start, easy to service, very little maintenance required. I wish everything were as nice as the Deutz engines.
McLeod County MinnesotaOne of my combines has an air cooled Deutz V8 that I really like. It is quiet, reliable, fuel efficient and runs very smoothly. It is the only diesel engine we have that will idle below 300 rpms which isn’t very important but it does show how smoothly it runs. The combine is only 16 years old so I have no experience with major engine repairs.
I would disagree with Bern’s comment, “An air cooled model still has to turn a fan. A water cooled model does not.” I don’t have irrigation engines which may be a different breed of cat, but all of my tractor, truck, and combine engines have fans regardless of whether they use water as a heat transfer medium.
West TexasDeutz at one time had the most fuel efficient diesel engines in the world. I don't know if they still do but having run Deutz tractors and tractors with Deutz engines along side with other brands of same hp doing same work the Deutz engines would do almost twice as much work on the same amount of fuel.
At that time they were very fuel efficient, quiet and strong.
All of these were air cooled non turbo 6 cylinder engines.
Huntley MontanaFor Irrigation work they are the ENGINE. # 2 would be a HATZ.
Like the others said keep the fins clean. You can have all the rest as far as I'm concerned. Will burn a LOT less Diesel than anything else I've seen. With $2-3 Diesel , the 1-4 gallon per Hr less will pay for any problems 2-10x over.You asked-I answer. I run three of them. Make sure the fuel injection pump has a live oil line running to it. make sure the fan bearings dont even have remote roughness, at the speed they run any drag is TOO much. There is an idler on the front belt which gradualy wears crooked. When you over haul them, you will pay to have all the head bolts drilled out because they are all so rusted and mouse pee'd tight. And the bill to drill them will knock you for a 'loop'. Mice will crawl inside the air chamber and also the air cleaner and make nests every time the motor is "OFF". Saw a guy tie window screen around air intake. Helped that. Air flow fins get blowed out real quick if you start the motor with the cover off and take a wire to get going to pry loose and grind the mice (if your lucky ). I am going to try mouse poison when off and see if I can taget those pregnant mothers. Keep a supply of belts in one hand when runnuing season. They eat belts 'really' fast. The stock generators are junk. Aftermarket alternators dont last from noon to dinner. A alternator running off the driveshaft would last alot longer. Or one of those solar chargers for the little battery drain the murphy draws would be an improvement.
Overall, I "think" they make a more efficent motor these days.. motor salesman said a few years ago that an Izuzu was the hot seller, somebody may have surpassed that by now. One of those efficency exams might be in order to make sure things are up to snuff. I cant imagine that anything will fix the high pumping costs of high diesel. If you have a 24/7 motor figure out what that fuel is costing, per hour, per day, per week, per month, per season, then figure out if your total crop is 'worth' that much??? Now where is the 'other' costs going to come from???Congradulations, you now own the best part of $4. corn you might get sold in harvest season, for $1.50-1.75 IF your lucky when your bins at home get full too quick.Defintely looking at the air cooled ones. Heard the water cooled engines by Deutz weren't as reliable or efficient. Are these engines any more expensive or complicated to work on than conventional water cooled engines? If I go this route I am probably going to get the shop manuals and wrench on them myself. It will give me something to do in the winter months. Also, arent all of the heads, jugs and some other parts interchangable between sizes, i.e. 4,5,6 cylinders. Also heard the 5 cylinder models dont balance out as good as the enen number cylinder engines, any truth to this? Thanks for the info, looks like I will be buying some more of these engines in the future. I already have a couple of the small ones that I bought used and use in some smaller, light duty applications. They have been good engines with the little experience I have had with them. Just wanting some advice before I chunk a bunch of money into more of them.
Tom
Brazilton KSA water cooled irrigation engine, like a boat engine, does not have any use for a fan. No need to use an air-water heat exchanger and fan to cool the coolant when you have a basically unlimited supply of 55 degree water to use for cooling.
Alsace 47°52'46"N 7°24'30"EFor those of you who run on diesel engines WITHOUT intercooler, have a google search on 'pantone' His system of injecting some kind of vapour has helped reduce consumption in many a case. Have to see it to believe it!
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Too strong lobbies are fighting his invention.
That said, running a diesel with a water cooler that uses the cool water that is pumped is not the answer: this water is way too cool for the engine and produces temp stress and will ruin head gasket! An engine runs best at it's normal working temp which is around 80°C, you'll have to figure out what this makes in °F.... So ideal temp of water coolant is around the same temp. I have witnessed people using a big water tank to have enough heat exchange surface instead of the radiator fan.... It's your $$$ anyway.
My 2 cents.... DSMIHNMA: Don't Sue Me, I Have No Money Anyway!
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Edited by MikeInFrance 5/10/ 13:11
SW KS, near Dodge CityMike, the intercooler they're talking about is what I call cooling coils. You have a dedicated, closed cooling system that circulates the water through the irrigation water flow to cool it instead of running it through a radiator. I'll try to find a picture later.
Phil
EDIT: I didn't explain that worth a crap. The dedicated system has a surge tank that sits where a radiator would sit on a regular motor. Coming out of this a hose goes into the block & 1 goes to the cooling coil pipes that are enclosed in the irrigation pipe. Then one of the pipes coming out of the heat exchanger goes into the motor. You use the exact same coolant in this system as you do in a normal radiator setup.
Edited by pknoeber 5/10/ 15:04
That is what I always thought. Had a chance to buy an 855 Cummins that came from a fire system in a factory. Only had 150 hours and it was all test hours as the fire system was not needed. Price was great BUT inside the water jacket I could peel the scale off with my fingers. Also had a IH M that rusted a hole in the block from the inside. Man I bought it from said he only used water for its whole life. Never ran it in the winter so he saw no reason to put antifreeze in it. This is what I have seen "here". John
Texasfor what it is worth ,the smaller deutz applications have an oil cooler system .quite a bit diffrent from what we are used to with a deutz . they hold up well too,with less maintence .if you have a chance to look at an atlas copco compressor you can look at one.
Mount Vernon, WAWe are not talking about running the pumped irrigation water through the cylinder block. It would still use antifreeze and a thermostat to keep the engine at normal operating temps (I prefer 200 degrees F ).
The pumped irrigation water would simply be circulated around cooling coils which contain the engine's coolant. The engine thermostat would maintain the normal operating temp.
Mount Vernon, WAI do remember that discussion. I'll have to look that up in my old computer and see exactly what we came up with. I remember we looked at the Deutz, but I'm not sure whether it was water or air cooled. I'll you when and if I find that info.
Alsace 47°52'46"N 7°24'30"EThanks for the details of the cooling circuit..... So I have to understand that in place of a water/air heat exchanger, U use a water/water exchanger. great! ..... Got any pics to fix my mind?
When I was talking of intercooler, I was referring to the pantone thing. This system has difficulty with the intercooler to the turbo compressed intake. Have seen great pics of a french engineer that is vulgarising this system in africa: he installed it on a 300 HP CAT generator and wittnessed at least 20% less fuel consumption.... furthemore, the engine seems to have reborn to a new life and doesn't smoke any more.
Think that with ongoing price increase on energy, every cent is making a difference....
This guy is also thinking on how to build an affordable dual energy line so that diesel engines can switch to vegetable oil (raw pressed rape:cqnolla, sunflowers, etc... ) and back to diesel.
wagonmaster Posted 5/10/ 22:03 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Opinion of Deutz enginesWe have one in our combine we can get about 1- 1 1/2 galons per acre I have also heard the utilty size tractors get great economy. A guy about 5-6 miles away sold a fairly new tractor to go back to a much older Duetz for the fuel. Parts can be pricey but they last along time. Shop around on parts deals can be had there is a place south of GR Michigan that specializes in them.Redwrench
Posted 5/10/ 22:10 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Opinion of Deutz enginesthe Deutz is a well-built engine. Case used them in their old line of sheepsfoot rollers. The Deutz's fatal flaw in my experience is that the slightest malfunction of the air cooling system results in 100% meltdown damage. Be it as simple as a rusted or leaking air duct plenum or a dragging blower fan bearing, it will result in melted aluminum heads if the operator doesn't catch it in time. There is 0% margin for error, unlike a water-cooled system which can at least still absorb heat. And the replacement parts were horribly expensive.Tom Russell
Posted 5/11/ 06:15 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: Re: Opinion of Deutz engines
McLeod County MinnesotaThanks for the irrigation engine lesson.
Edited by Tom Russell 5/11/ 06:21
usafarmer Posted 5/11/ 10:02 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Opinion of Deutz enginesDid a little test last year while watering cabbage. The 105 hp Deutz tractor beat the 105 hp Deere tractor by 25% on fuel use. That is on the same pump on the same gun in the same field. Have bought 2 used Deutz this year and am now up to 9 of them fuel saving beasts. I will buy more when I find that certain tractor.. We have broken a few belts over the last 20 years and have never had a total meltdown. Had a guy run one atleast 6 hours and never had a problem with that tractor since. You need to clean the fins just like you need to keep a radiator clean. On parts you need to learn the places to buy them from. I get mine from the Doctor in Mo. I would go with a 912 or 913 series. I am told they have a forged crank and the 914 series has a cast crank. Stock Deutz parts are stong, I beat alot of pulling tractors who have more money spent on the engine than I have spent on the whole tractor. I have also been beat alot of times by them same tractors.
wdw Posted 5/11/ 10:17 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: deutz tractorsyou probably run the older deutz, how do you get around the bad brakes that these tractors had? also would you consider the agco tractors, like a allis with deutz engine, or do you just stick to the true green deutz. Curious if you hold the new agco deutz power tractor in same regard as the old deutz.
usafarmer Posted 5/12/ 07:38 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: deutz tractors
OK, the guy who I bought the 30EC from called this weekend, he cleans out property lots that have been taken back by the bank (in the boonies no less)
He says he has this generator with a DEUTZ F4L912 4 cylinder diesel engine powering this set. On the mounting framework it says GMI, looking quickly I could not read the tag on the generator frame. The engine is rated at 58 HP and 43KW. exh. has been open to the elements and air filter is off. I put a socket on the crankshaft and turned it slightly back and forth. It turned fairly easily. The guiy said $250.00 and he will put it on his trailer and haul it to my place for gas money.
I am thinking it is worth the money to get it home. It's a clean and 98% all there set. I think I saw on one of the tags. Complete pushbutton electronic control panel. No battery to try and power it up though.
Thoughts????
Re: Please don't kick me off, Deutz/GMI generator
Wow.. for 250 I would of turned Into the hulk and loaded it myself then and there! Great engines!
I have worked on tons of them.. mostly just serviced them.. but did a full rebuild on one with hours that was attached to a twin screw air compressor.. it ran just fine.. but smoked a bit.. and the company got a ticket from epa while on a job at a hospital.. instead of replacing it they wanted it rebuilt..
Just needed rings and one rod bearing had a few scores in it so we replaced them all.. all OEM parts under with a full gasket set, new oil pump as well.. still had good cross hatches in the bore and was well in spec..
Cylinder head went to get checked and came back needing no new parts.. that should tell you something.. keep in mind thow it was maintained by my friend that I helped rebuild it with since new every 200 to 250 hours.. went through 3 screw compressors tho.. ingersoll rand if I remember right.. ? Or so.
Bleeding the fuel system can be tricky.. but once you learn it no problems
Re: Please don't kick me off, Deutz/GMI generator
The 912 is perhaps the most rugged air cooled diesel engine that Deutz ever built. 50+ years of production on that model is a testament to their reliability. I would have been all over that generator at $250, even $ if it were complete or close to it. They are a fine engine and usually coupled to a top tier generator head.
Chris
... I am thinking it is worth the money to get it home. It's a clean and 98% all there set... Thoughts????
1. I hate you... you seem to get all the good stuff.
2. That may be the best $250 you have spent in some time.
---------- Post added at 06:12:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:04:38 AM ----------
...a story of one on a soil screener....cranking it over on the crank bolt just to see if it was free. It started.
BTDT....except substitute "water pump" for "soil screener". I have since learned that you should not turn a Deutz over unless you are either prepared for it to run or very sure that it will not.
Deutz is at least as good as Onan, simple engine to work on, all separate cylinder heads.
The only spare you need to have on stock is the V belt for the cooling fan, when it breaks the engine shuts down. (mechanical)
Have a 3 cylinder F3L might even be a 6 in a hydrolic crane, it leaks and smokes a little, push the starter no matter summer or winter and it goes.
The 912 is a good precup diesel low smoke and smooth running.
I would buy it.
We use a lot of them in mining because of the low emissions.
They are a little hard to start in the cold ( not a problem for you I imagine )
Tend to be a bit messy with oil leaks around the pushrod tubes and such.
There is a nice aftermarket clock work starter kit for them, you just charge up the spring with a priming handle and hit the release button and the things fire right up without electricity.
if I do see problems it comes from people not understanding these engines need a load on them.
Fresh rebuilds glaze over easy if you just let them idle and them for the rest of their unnatural service lives they smoke and give you trouble.
Parts are extremly cheap.
KOEL sells a clone version called the HA series ( used to be the Asian licence copy until the agreement expired and they carried on cloning ).
As I recall a MICO brand injector is about 40 dollars new for it ( this is Robert Bosche in Asia swap the first digit from a 9 to a zero for compatible parts number interchange )